Podcast: Talking to Kids about COVID-19: Vincent Papaleo, Clinical Psychologist, shows us how

Sally:

Welcome to another series of Nicholes Family Lawyers podcasts, in particular, the community response to the Coronavirus. In this podcast, we have Vincent Papaleo, a psychologist coming back to really help us look at how to talk to children about such an important issue as the Coronavirus. I am joined by my associate, Alastair Noakes. Alastair is an Associate who heads up our Child Protection Unit, most particularly, due to his lengthy experience working in child protection and now as a family lawyer. We are also joined by Flynn Allan, who is a director and editor, who also has a special interest in how children are impacted by, as he saw this, impacted by the Coronavirus. We actually have the opportunity now to talk to two children, Harry, 12 and James, who is 8. We are able to spontaneously interview them about their view of the Coronavirus, their knowledge in an appropriate way, to give people a guide, and parents in particular, a guide about talking to children. So without further ado, welcome, Harry and James.

Vincent:

Hi, James. Hi, Harry. How are you today?

James & Harry:

Good. Good, thank you.

Vincent:

Good. I can see you are at home, you are not going to school?

Harry:

No.

Vincent:

How come?

Harry:

Because of the Coronavirus.

Vincent:

Okay, all right. Is it okay if I ask you some questions about the Coronavirus?

James:

Cool.

Vincent:

Excellent, okay. Can I ask, what do you understand about the Coronavirus? What is it?

Harry:

That it is a pandemic and it is a pandemic around the world and it is a virus.

Vincent:

Okay.

James:

It is caused by bats.

Vincent:

By bats, okay. Can I ask Harry, when you say pandemic, what does it mean?

Harry:

Worldwide, the virus is worldwide.

Vincent:

So, it is a worldwide virus. Everybody in the world can catch this virus?

Harry:

Yes.

James:

Yes.

Vincent:

What do you think about that? What is it like?

Harry:

Well, it is a bit annoying, a bit scary because we have to just keep our distance from people and we have to stay home.

Vincent:

Yes. So annoying and scary.

Harry:

Yes.

Vincent:

Yeah, I reckon it is a bit annoying and scary. What is the most annoying part for you?

Harry:

Probably not being able to see my friends and not being able to go out as much as I would like to.

Vincent:

Yeah, so are you still seeing your friends or are you talking about not being out and physically see your friends?

Harry:

Not being able to see them physically.

Vincent:

Yeah, okay, that is annoying. Anything else about it that is annoying?

Harry:

Not being able to physically see family members or do activities that we would normally be able to do.

Vincent:

Yeah, what are you missing the most?

Harry:

Probably, my sport.

Vincent:

Sport, yeah, that is really hard, isn’t it?

Harry:

Yes.

Vincent:

You also said, it is scary. What is scary about it?

Harry:

Well, it is scary because if you catch it, you can infect, it will infect you, more for adults and older people. And yeah.

Vincent:

Okay. Have mum and dad spoken to you about what sorts of things you can do to stop catching it and from other people catching it?

Harry:

Yes.

Vincent:

So you know it is important to wash your hands?

Harry:

Yeah, wash your hands and keep far from us, a distance from each other.

Vincent:

Okay, what we know, Harry, is if you wash your hands a lot and you keep distance, that it means that the germs cannot jump from person to person, yeah?

Harry:

Yeah.

Vincent:

What about you, James? What do you understand about the Coronavirus and what it means?

James:

Well, I just understand that it is a very deadly virus and that it can affect your life for a very long time, it might be lost.

Vincent:

Okay, when you say it is really deadly, what do you mean?

James:

Like, for example, if someone could not- well, we do not have the vaccine right now so you would probably die alone.

Vincent:

Okay, good. Well, probably some important things for us to know about the virus that is that many people catch the virus and die from the virus, okay? But it is true, that some people, and especially older people can catch it much more easily than younger people. So we have to be careful. But it is not true that everybody that catches the virus, dies from the virus.

James:

Yes that is very true. Not all kids can catch it. Well, not all kids can die from the virus.

Vincent:

Most people do not die from the virus. We just have to be careful because some people can get more sick than others.

James:

Yes.

Vincent:

Do you know that some people only get really mild symptoms like a sore throat and runny eyes and a cough, and a bit of a temperature?

James:

No, I did not know that.

Vincent:

Yeah, and other people get really, really sick and some people hardly get sick at all.

James:

I still did not know about that either.

Vincent:

Yeah, okay, so that is kind of important to know, too. Isn’t it?

James:

Yes.

Vincent:

Can you tell me, James, if you had to ask someone questions about it, who would you ask?

James:

Probably my mum and dad.

Vincent:

Yeah, I think that is a really good idea. What about you, Harry, is there anything about the Coronavirus that you would like to know about or you have not asked?

Harry:

No. When it gets bigger and bigger every day, people will understand more about it and we know more about it. And we can learn from our mistakes. And that also, I do not have any questions.

Vincent:

You know, Harry, I think that is right. I think that every day, that the doctors and the scientists are knowing more and more and more about it, so that we are getting closer and closer to being able to stop it from spreading from person to person. Well I ask – Harry, did you know that some people catch the Coronavirus and they become really, really sick, but most people do not become that sick. Do you know that?

Harry:

Yes.

Vincent:

Okay. Is there anything else about the Coronavirus that you would like to ask about?

Harry:

No.

Vincent:

What about you, James, is there anything else you would like to ask, that you do not know about or that you would want maybe to be a part of it?

James:

No, no

Vincent:

Okay, all right. So a couple of things, James, that might be helpful. You know, you catch the Coronavirus sort of like you catch a cold, but some people get a really, really bad cold and some people do not get much of a cold at all.

James:

Yeah.

Vincent:

Some people get sick, some people just do not. But most people do not get sick and most people get better.

James:

Yeah.

Vincent:

Still sensible for us to be careful. Yeah, okay. If we can finish, is that enough?

Flynn:

Yeah, do you mind if I ask some questions, too?

Vincent:

You can – of me?

Flynn:

No, no, of the boys.

Alastair:

I will go after you, Flynn.

Flynn:

Yeah. Well, I am stuck inside, obviously, it is quite boring and I am curious to know what you guys do to entertain yourselves? What do you guys do inside?

James:

We just go on a bike ride.

Harry:

Or I play a board game with family or maybe do a bit of exercise around our street.

Flynn:

I mean, because you know, it is really boring being locked up in a household all day. And I think everyone is feeling it. See, there is obviously going to be negatives about the virus, but do you find that you are also spending time with your family or your parents a lot more?

Harry:

Yeah, just getting to know, just having family time, just working together.

Flynn:

Exactly.

Sally:

Are you getting on each other’s nerves a little bit?

James:

A little bit.

Flynn:

I do not speak from experience. Not at all. Yeah, but that is cool, that is awesome. Yeah, it is just about making up because this massive change obviously affects everyone in many different ways, but you have just got to find ways around it, especially at your ages. It is about having fun, not caring too much about the risk of what is happening around you, and just even with what is happening.

James:

Yeah.

Flynn:

Yeah. All right, after you.

Alastair:

All right. Can I ask both of you guys the same question but we will start with James. Before the talk with Vince today, where do you find out most of the information about the Coronavirus?

James:

From my mum and dad.

Alastair:

And what about you, Harry?

Harry:

Well, at school….. We did a bit of studies on that and a few information sessions, text a lot. So I learned a bit from school and a bit from news and my parents.

Alastair:

Okay, thank you. That was my only question.

Sally:

And how do you find school? How do you find school, boys, at this time?

Harry:

Hard. Harder.

James:

Much, much harder.

Sally:

We just caught you in the middle of races, so you are a bit frustrated?

Harry:

A little.

Sally:

You would rather be outside playing?

Both:

Yes.

Flynn:

Thanks boys.

Vincent:

See you guys. Thanks for helping me out.

Flynn:

See you guys.

Alastair:

Sorry to interrupt your races.

Vincent:

See you, James and Harry.

Alastair:

All right, James and Harry, just go.

Both boys:

Thank you.

Alastair:

There is much they can do for the rest of the day.

Flynn:

Yeah, listen to Alastair, he has over-…..

Alastair:

All right, a fight over chocolate!

Sally:

Another thing, when you actually spoke to Harry and James, you were very quick to reassure James that the Coronavirus actually has an impact on everybody in such a dramatic way because in his mind, the Coronavirus, if you were infected, led immediately to death. And you guided by that quite quickly. Why did you do that?

Vincent:

I think it is really important, Sally, to give children clear, accurate information in a way and at a level they can understand. We want to emphasise that if they are fine, and if the family is fine, and if the people around them are fine, that is a reality-based calm reassurance. It is also important to tell them that some people do get sick because that is factual information, but that most people become well, that most people do not die, that most people recover, and that some people get really minor symptoms. So, this in order to clarify any confusion or misconception.

Sally:

Sure, and looking at their developmental stages, I note the way you talk to both boys, is there a different degree about the reassurance? Is there a different amount of knowledge that children can actually absorb depending on their age and stage?

Vincent:

Look, absolutely, Sally, so you can see even from our brief interview with Harry and James, that Harry was thinking about the world quite differently. He was-

Sally:

That is Harry and James, your brief interview with Harry and James.

Vincent:

Sorry, sorry. It is harder than I thought. You are absolutely right. Sally, you can see, even from my interviews with Harry and James, that Harry is a 12-year-old who is thinking about the world quite differently. He spoke about how he had obtained information from school, from the internet, presumably from his friends. He was thinking about the whole situation from a much broader perspective. He was thinking about the world, the virus, pandemics. He understood what a pandemic was. Whereas James, he was thinking about it from a very different perspective. He was thinking about it from a very personal perspective. He was concerned about the family and who would become unwell and who would become sick. So in trying to respond to them and their understanding from an age and stage, a sympathetic perspective is really important. It is always important to give accurate, factual information.

Sally:

Considering what their fears are, at the different ages, is that quite understandable to propose a debate concerned about or should they- If children are actually exhibiting fears, is that quite understandable given the nature of the disease in unprecedented times and that adults ourselves are actually struggling? Is there a point where adults need to seek out some assistance for their children? When should adults be concerned about the way in which their children are describing or reacting to self-isolation? Is there anything that parents should be concerned about? If their children are exhibiting concern, is there a reaction that is a bit extreme? For example, the boys’ reaction that they gave you, hold races and eager to get away, from what we understand. Is there anything that parents should do…..when do I actually get some assistance if I think children are quite anxious?

Vincent:

I think it is really important to give factual information. Because in the absence of factual information, children can imagine situations as being far worse than the reality of their situation. I think we get a small indication of how James as an eight-year-old might be vulnerable to that. We do not want to ignore their concerns but rather we want to explain how things are at the present moment. That is, that more people are getting better than are sick. That the grown-ups, the scientists, and the doctors are telling us what we need to do in order to be safe. That not everyone gets sick in the same way. And that there are things that we can do in order to reduce the risks. We talk about washing hands, we talk about keeping distant. It is also really important to remember that maintaining normal routines and normal structures for them, as much as possible, will reassure them. Most children start to become anxious when they feel as though circumstances around them are beyond their control. So, the strongest piece of advice that I can give to parents is to try and compress the children’s world down. To have clear structure, consistency and routine specially at the time when things are so different. To give them factual information and actual information in ways that those children can use. And to be led by the questions that their children ask them. People tend to become too expansive, they give too much information because they are trying to impart information rather than respond to questions. So if take in their questions, and consider how much information you provide to them, then you will find that naturally, you will respond to the more developmentally-appropriate age.

Sally:

But in a way, what you have been saying is that that is good. That James, who is younger, did not have the same level of detail which is just probably a good thing because he does not really need to know; he needs to know that there are things he could do, like wash his hands and he can help affect that older people would be protected. But with Harry, Harry knew a little bit more detail, that you need to be 1.5 metres away….. he gave more about the detail which is a positive thing at 12. But both of them were not as absorbed or engrossed in it which is probably a good thing. So that Harry- that is what you are saying as well, being strict because if they did, it would be like any human tragedy that is on the news, forgetting what we are experiencing at the moment. We do not want to be actually rushing and bringing them to the news to see there has been an earthquake somewhere and they have to carry that awful tragedy, which is awful. That would just be a shocking thing to do with kids.

Vincent:

My suggestion is: do not burden children with too much information that is beyond their capacity to understand or process. I think it is really important to remind children that there are adults working to address the problem. And that we are making gains. It is important to remind children that their parents know what to do.

Alastair:

If I can just jump in there very quickly. I think it was a good example of what you did there, Vince, where you allowed the questions from the boys to really lead the conversations. You responded to what they said and you let it come to a natural conclusion, rather than some people who might find themselves too eager to impart information, and then burden their children with unnecessary knowledge about the incidence of the virus, or they might find themselves cutting the conversation a little bit short because they feel they have imparted enough information and leave the children with actually wanting more answers.

Vincent:

Yeah, I think that is right, Alastair. And the other part, that I would like to emphasise is the importance of separating reality from fantasy and fear. James had some fears and worries that were probably not grounded in reality. What he had managed to do is to grapple with little parts of information. And he was starting to incorporate them into his narrative. I think that there were bits too that were inaccurate, that were more anxiety-driven and fear-based on the basis of the information that he had garnished from the world in general. I think that helping him just understand that not everyone gets really sick, not everyone dies. If you catch the virus, that does not mean that you are terminally ill. That we can do things to minimize the risks.

Alastair:

I think you did really well there. Not to jump in and try to immediately correct James’s maybe misunderstanding of certain facts and not to make him feel self-conscious about what his understanding of the matter was. But just to let it play out and then to guide it with further questions.

Vincent:

I think it is important to try and understand their internal narrative brought by our thinking, and to give them to space to talk about that. I think that we found, with Harry for example, it would have been really interesting to talk to him more about what a pandemic means, what the implications were. He was already thinking about those things. For James it was quite a different perception and experience.

Sally:

I was thinking, and you said before, parents need to lead. You often say about a relationship, in a family law context, that if a parent is okay, the kids will be okay. Imagine that if you are a separated family that it would good for parents to have in parenting a common narrative, a common approach to talk to the children about the Coronavirus while having a similar approach.

Vincent:

Ideally so, absolutely. Trying not to allow the children to become infected by parental concerns, parental anxiety or adult concerns that are beyond their capacity to understand.

Flynn:

Well, it is just another thing. Parents have to decide, because every child is different, right? And the parents of children have to kind of understand their own child and how their child would react because one child would react differently from another. They could understand that and, in your own knowledge, process it and give it to them in a way they would understand?

Sally:

Some children are more resilient than others, aren’t they, Vince?

Vincent:

Temperament is obviously a very important consideration. Some children by virtue of their disposition are more inclined to worry and to ruminate into thinking this is over. Whereas others are more adequately confident not to miss it so there is no escaping temperament. For the vast majority of us, when we feel we have some sense of control then our anxiety lessens.

Sally:

I guess that works really well at the moment. As you said, it is important to say the adults have this under control. We can actually say at the moment, Australia is doing a good job. Flynn is from New Zealand, you can say New Zealand is doing a good job although he is….

Flynn:

Thank you. Thank you.

Sally:

At the moment we have actually got, we can say we have got quite strong leadership involved. That setting of boundaries at home in leadership is I guess a similar approach, isn’t it? It is for the kids to feel secure. We can say where our country is, set down boundaries, where our borders are shut, and that means that we are actually controlling it in a way that other countries are not. So if they see a snippet of the news from Europe, which is quite alarming, we can say, “Well, luckily our country has it under control. Your role, you can control it, as you said, washing your hands, for example.”

Flynn:

Yes. I would like to add something to that. Because, me as a kid, I was a worrier. I would worry about a lot of things especially when I watched the news and I had days in which I would worry about what was going on with the news. Sorry, I will start it again. Just to add to that. I know as a kid that I was a very much a worrier. Especially when I watch the news and I would worry about what was on it for many days afterwards. I think that as well as telling them the truth, and that is the most important thing because you get to understand where you are with the rest of the country is, where the rest of the world is. I think it is very important to understand your child because every child is different and let them be kids because as much as truth is fantastic this does not concern just kids. It is nice being a kid and not having to worry about anything and that is where kids grow up too fast is when you bring them into these big problems quite early. It is important to get to that point, but when they are only six, seven, eight you have got to balance it. You have got to balance so when they are in quarantine they are still being kids. They are not tirelessly worrying about what is happening on the other side of the world. They are still playing. They are still being kids. I think that is really important.

Alastair:

It is important for them to, well, for parents, to know whose responsibility it is to carry that burden. Answer them, to show to them that information is true. As Vince has pointed out, children do look to their parents regarding some leadership. This can include picking up on stress that a parent may be feeling or otherwise having things heard around the home. Giving this is often an unconscious process by a parent. What advice would you have to help parents regulate themselves and ensure that their children are not inadvertently negatively impacted?

Vincent:

That is a really good question, Alistair. I think there are a couple of things. First is that they could put into place clear action plans. So, you should think about what they are going to do in advance rather than having to deal with things when they are confronted with the problem or some unforeseen issue. If it was me, I would encourage parents to limit the amount of exposure that children have to news items and maybe social media because it manages and moderates parents’ exposure to this information. I would ask parents to reflect upon the realities of this situation so they can communicate those realities to their children. In James’s and Harry’s family, there is no one who is sick. They probably do not know anyone who is unwell. They probably only get information from the news feeds that they receive about these risks. So, having a reality-based and reality-grounded expectation, is really important if you like to scaffold what their parents are telling them with real life experience. So inviting parents to be realistic and to imagine the experience from a child’s perspective so as to lead. I think that parents who are anxious tend to share too much information. So a simple piece of advice is to say less, not more.

Alastair:

Some people who may have older children or typically teenagers, these children can choose not to abide by the social distancing directives and regulate going out with their socializing friends. Often, it is quite difficult for parents to put those boundaries in place. These families might also have younger children or elderly family members in the home. Do you have any advice about how parents can really hammer the importance of the social distancing and isolation directives?

Vincent:

I think this characteristic …. I think Alastair is like saying it is not going to happen to me.

Alastair:

Absolutely.

Vincent:

They tend to have a very different view of the world and they see themselves as being indestructible. So, the issue then is a developmental one because kids of this age see the world like this, anyway. They see the world in a way where they are empowered and they are not going to be affected. So, they will be given some factual information which is important. You might well say to them, “You know, it is true you may not get sick but you may get someone else sick without even knowing it.” And to ask them how they might feel if their brother, or their grandparents, or their parents, or an uncle or aunt, or someone close to them got sick and really sick as a consequence of their action. How would they think about that? Because teenagers can stop to think about their folks. They cannot think about thinking. Younger children cannot think about thinking. And part of what we might want to do is to ask them to reflect upon what the consequences of their actions will be. And how they would feel if that was the case? Ultimately if you have a 15-year-old storming out of the house and saying they are going to spend their time with their friends, it is going to be difficult for parents to stop them from doing that. But I would also suggest that that is likely to be the tip of a much bigger iceberg that was existing well before COVID-19. Ultimately we want to apply the same basic principles in terms of management of those children regardless of whether it is a pre or post COVID-19 environment. That is we want to have clear expectations. We want our teenagers to understand what our expectations are. We want them to understand how we feel and how we say things. We want them to use our behaviour and expectations as yardsticks against which to measure their own behaviour. So hopefully they can make the decisions. The other part of it, Alastair, is that we are completely flooded by information from the outside telling us about the need to be cautious, acknowledging that it is uncomfortable, recognizing that it is a huge inconvenience, empathizing with the enormous financial and emotional cost that is coming with these actions, and we are doing this in order to safeguard, not only ourselves but those close to us in the health system. I think all the teenagers can get that.

Alastair:

Understand it. Maybe not always appreciated but absolutely.

Vincent:

Yes. That is the nature of this group of people. Just a unique set of circumstances. I think, generally, telling teenagers what to do is less successful. It would be much more helpful to try and involve them in conversations so that they become part of the process and they buy in. If you are able to do that, then you are more likely to have a better outcome. And to help problem-solve with them, to acknowledge and empathize with their experience, much like the government does with us every day. “We understand how hard this is. We understand what a terrible impact this has been on people’s financial and social life. We understand that this is a huge inconvenience but we are doing this to protect our citizens, our elderly, to not overwhelm our health system.” To have such a conversation with young people about this is a way in which to get them to buy in.

Sally:

May we focus on the silver lining. I guess a lot of parents have actually said that at least they are home with the children every day. I was interviewing some UK lawyers who have said that legal practice will never be the same because a lot of people now are actually really practising from home and really enjoying being with their children, and that once everyone goes…. Usually, I would go there physically to work with people when actually I do not really want to. ….I want to be able to stay at home more often because I love that interaction. I think if maybe with children you have got the option to be with them, to show affection, to show and to talk about the silver linings with children as well. Do you think?

Vincent:

I think it is a really interesting conversation, Sally, because I, too, I am getting feedback from people with whom I am consulting that the imposed restrictions are creating new opportunities. Whereas teenagers used to spend all their time in their bedrooms, now what they are doing is spending less time in their bedrooms. So the opportunity comes up and social interaction is much more palatable and effective. Whereas many parents have traditionally complained about their kids just not interacting with them. Now that there is this lockdown and social isolation, not interacting had become a normal, so coming out of their rooms and interacting, creating opportunities, watching television, playing board games is I think offering an unexpected opportunity to some families to connect in ways that they may not have been able to do or be comfortable with. Because we are all so busy. We’ve got so much to do. There are so many competing demands and I think most of us have had to embrace this sense of slowing down and focusing on how much is really important to us.

Sally:

One of the best question about home schooling is where parents say, “I just cannot. My children do not want me to be their teacher.” What is your advice to parents who are really struggling with home schooling?

Vincent:

Sally, I think, as a general rule, children do not want more teachers. I have got teachers. And parents are not teachers. Parents are parents. I think it is extremely unhelpful to enter the battles around these things. Other than extending an invitation for support and assistance to your children if they would like that, I think those parents who feel that they have to police this are likely to invite conflict.

Sally:

I can imagine. Hopefully, this is a temporary situation and everybody has to pull through and have time to teach in other ways by spending time, cooking with their children which is the new phenomenon, and teaching in that way but really just realize that everyone is in the same boat. It is almost impossible to work from home and also teach your children.

Vincent:

I could not agree with you more, Sally. I think that those parents who have expectations of running their business from home, working from home, teaching their children, as well as managing entertainment, this is a huge expectation and maybe that part of what you said earlier, that is people having to re-evaluate, is also true for the way in which you spend time and educate your children. It is a unique opportunity to do things with your children that you may not otherwise have time to do. If that was me and I had children at home, I would allow them to do the work in whatever way they feel and I will try and support them but not intervene or interrupt or direct it. If we create a hierarchy of what is really important, at the very top of the list should be to assist in family harmony, children’s welfare, adults’ emotional, physical and psychological welfare, so that education comes somewhere underneath that. In the broader sense, children excel or achieve their academic potential when they have a harmonious home experience and when there is a good connection between home and school. Those children and parents who are entering into battles around school-work inevitably have problems about it. I would take a big step away from that, I must say.

Flynn:

It is a different time. And honestly school-work, no one is ahead, no one is behind. You should not overly stress yourself about getting kids to do school work because in the end it is going to go back to normal. All these things will fit into puzzle pieces eventually and you’ve just got to be patient. You’ve got to be resilient.

Alastair:

I guess the other end of this is the children who are currently going through this might be doing the easy subjects earlier where this is really their final chance to have all those phases going into place. This is the culmination of over a decade’s worth of education and obviously there is going to be some hurt and anxiety in the home coming from those children as well.

Vincent:

Tremendously, I am aware of circumstances that hold cohorts of young people. However, it is a cohort which is experiencing the problem in exactly the same way. I imagine that the whole educational system will calibrate to accommodate that.

Sally:

We are all in the same boat. I think it is interesting because I know quite a few parents who have said the kids who had been training, for example, for events like the rowing event that some kids have been training, and then the entire school lock-down has meant cancellation. And they will never be able to do it again.  And think about the Olympians, too. It is really quite an extraordinary time that we will reflect on but it has really been incredibly helpful, Vince. Is there anything else that you would like to share with parents before we end today?

Vincent:

Children do best when parents stay, that is when parents take control, place firm clear limits and expectation. Now is not the time, in my view, to be more passive in relation to parenting but rather to step up to give structure, to give leadership, to convey clear expectations, to take charge of the situation, and to give to your children factual information in a way that they can manage and absorb and to really take this unique opportunity to be with your children in ways that possibly you never will have the opportunity to do again.

Sally:

My EA has a lovely expression that she uses with her grandchild where her grandchild is calling this the “coconut virus”. And she is saying it as an adventure. It is not a very serious issue but seeing it through her grandchild’s eyes, she is trying to also make it like a habit for her grandchild and actually embrace that and to make it fun for her grandchild. I think that is really important too. As Flynn was saying, to keep things lighthearted for children is so important for their childhood. I think that’s a really important message as well. So, thank you Flynn, Alastair, and Vince. I am sure parents listening to this have been really really grateful. Thank you to Harry and James for their input and until we meet again.

Thank you very much, Vince.

Useful Links:

Vincent Papaleo & Associates: www.vincentpapaleoassociates.com.au/

Disclaimer: Nicholes Family Lawyers intends the information provided in this podcast as general information only, please contact Nicholes Family lawyers if you require specific information and advise in relation to any family law matter.